transparancy in pdf documents

[jens]

hello,

im working with onyx productionhouse , wasatch and caldera. All the RIPs have transparancy problems with pdf files. One more than the orther. What are the things you guys do in production to stop the transparancy problems messing up your printjobs ? You can fix it to make your on files but like me we print files from other company's

And what is the problem ? the pdf version ? or how the document is made ? layers ?
I think its adobe thats running to fast and the rips are always behind..

hope to hear from you guys,

kind regards
jens

[Scott]

7.2 was supposed to have addressed the transparency issues in this release. Obviously it didn't for you.

[jens]

how does the postscript settings have to be ?
because we have to ad some new lines ( from the support to test ) and i' m not shure if my settings are still ok ? Can you give me yours ?

kind regards,

jens

[jens]

anyone ?

[Scott]

Sorry, I missed your question the first time...when I get back to the office tomorrow I will see what my settings are currently (assuming mine are even right as well, haha).

[Hotspur]

Hi

7.2 did fix many of these issues found in 7.1

There is still an outstanding issue with trannies & PDFs unfortunately.

I have supplied some examples to the guys in SLC which have been escalated.

Engineering have agreed they also see the problem and now tell me they have a fix.

The fix is not set for release yet unfortunately. My guess is it will come in 7.3 which I understand is due Dec/Jan.

You may have to sit tight till then.

Rips play catch-up with the variations PDF-producing Apps can give.

Keep it under your hat, but I hear we may soon see a PDF preflight / distillation & correction App from Onyx....

[Scott]

9876curve Wrote:Keep it under your hat, but I hear we may soon see a PDF preflight / distillation & correction App from Onyx....

There should be a press release on it soon. I've seen a couple screenshots and made some comments on it for future builds. There is a feature freeze on the current release as best I know as they are about ready to roll out v1.

[jens]

now we have version 7.2.0.59, We have a lot of transparancy problems.
it costs us time and money , does anyone have a workaround ? i mean not by tiffing the hole thing ?

[jonkovach]

Jen,

What kind of problems are you having? In the PostScript settings for the RIP, make sure you have CCADL, transparency, overprint, and black overprint (not sure if black overprint is necessary or not), all checked, and all ON. I wish Onyx would give a little more definition as to what each of these settings do, but alas, they don't (that I know of). I'm not even sure what CCADL is, but I know it's important to have it on!

7.2 solved all my transparency problems, however there are instances that if I have a drop shadow over top of an image (believe it or not), the image gets all screwed up. That is a new one with 7.2 that I've never seen before. I talked to Onyx, and they said that is resolved in 7.3.

If I output a PDF, anything higher than version 1.3, and I have transparency problems, the first thing I do is go back and re-export that PDF as a version 1.3. That flattens it, but it solves the problem, usually. However, if you do that, and you have a drop shadow over top of a Pantone, you're screwed. You'll have to convert the spot colors to CMYK process colors.

Explain the problem you are having a little more, and perhaps I can be more specific.

Jon

[jens]

hello,

now with version 7.2.0.59 we have suddenly problems with files made in indesign and illustrator
for example:

layer in color in indesign and a picture ( PSD with tranparant layer) saved as pdf standard => problem
layer in color in indesign and a picture as Tiff ( with transparant layer) saved as pdf => problem
layer in color in indesgn and a picture as psd ( with a alpha channel contour line ) saved as pdf => no problem

layer in color in illustrator and a picture as psd saved as pdf => problem


how do you write your pdf files ? with a distiller ? or trough indesign with save ass...
how do you flatten the layers in 1.3? trough distiller ? of trough the program ?


when i put the file in caldera the problem is the same...
when i put the file in wasatch 6.4 no problem at all.

could it realy be the RIP ? or is the way the document is made the problem ?
can you post you postscript settings ?

[jonkovach]

Hmm... Okay, first off, I am running 7.2.0.59, as well. So we're on the same page there.

When you say "layer in color", what do you mean? I might just be reading it wrong. But do you mean that you have a PSD with a transparent layer placed into InDesign, then saved as PDF? What version of PDF are you going to?

I just had a problem yesterday. I had an image, and only an image... it was a layered PSD file. I placed that into InDesign, and exported to a v1.7 PDF. Dropping this on the RIP caused the entire image to wash out. Totally desaturated. Now, if I went into the RIP PostScript settings and turned off transparency, it RIPed just fine. However, that screws up any drop shadows that are in other files. So that option is out. What I had to do was export direct to a v1.3 PDF, thus flattening all the images/layers for the PDF. That works. the only downside to that is your Pantone colors and any drop shadows/transparencies will render as CMYK instead of Lab.

I write my PDF files directly out of the software program whenever I can. I only use Acrobat distiller on an as needed basis, which is rare anymore. I go File -> Export -> PDF... I go to a v1.7 PDF. If I have problems with that file, my next step is to go to a v1.3 PDF. Most cases that solves everything, sometimes I have to go into the linked files and explore what's going on.

When you export to a 1.3 PDF, everything is flattened automatically because 1.3 PDFs do not support transparency. If you are printing to a .PS file, you are flattening, as well.

All RIPs are different, so I'm not surprised that you get different results. Onyx now supports transparency as of 7.2. As far as I know, ColorBurst does not yet support transparency.

It could either be the RIP, or how the document is made, though in most cases that I've seen, it is a problem with how the RIP is interpreting the file. Adobe is way ahead of any RIP software.

The only RIP PostScript settings that affect this are CCADL, transparency, and overprint (and possibly black overprint). I have all these set to ON, and they are checked. Other settings will not affect this (that I know of), but if you need any other settings, let me know.

Hope this helps.
Jon

[Hotspur]

All Rips are different, but most share the same color engine (in our case Jaws) and it is Jaws giving the problems with transparencies.

CS3 Transparencies are theoretically neither bitmap or vector in the traditional sense which is what is causing the problem.

Many Rips use Jaws - it is not an Onyx product - and so many Rips are suffering the same problems.

However they have different wrappers surrounding the color engine - some Rips will catch a problem whilst others will miss it - luck of the draw I'm afraid.

[jens]

hello jonko,

i know of these problems, but i 'm trying to find a safe way to print my files. because reprinting a job costs time and money and is frustrating...
with a layer in color i mean a drawed box filled with color , like a vector rectangle in illustrator with a psd placed on it. I think now for the moment and maybe for al times that i should be safer to flatten the layers. Like 9876curve said ... adobe is moving to fast... in the meanwhile i send al my knowledge to the onyx support..

[jonkovach]

Jens,

I am pretty sure I understand the problems you are having. A drop shadow or transparent TIF over top of a colored box (spot color). However, I don't think you need to change your workflow entirely too much to get these to print.

A couple scenarios:

A color box (in InDesign) with a layered TIF/PSD file over top of it, exported to a 1.7 PDF - could cause printing problems.
A color box (in InDesign) with a flattened TIF/PSD file over top of it, exported to a 1.7 PDF - OK & maintains spot colors

A color box (in InDesign) with a layered TIF/PSD file over top of it, exported to a 1.3 PDF - OK & loses spot colors
A color box (in InDesign) with a flattened TIF/PSD file over top of it, exported to a 1.3 PDF - OK & loses spot colors

A color box (in InDesign) with a drop shadow (created in InDesign) over top of it, exported to a 1.7 PDF - OK & maintains spot colors
A color box (in InDesign) with a drop shadow (created in InDesign) over top of it, exported to a 1.3 PDF - OK & loses spot colors


That is very interesting to learn that all RIPs use JAWS.... Is there some central programmer that created the JAWS file, distributes it, and all the RIP companies alter it to get it to work with the new Adobe products?

Jon

[Hotspur]

Hi Jon

I think you misread Curve - not all Rips use Jaws - some do, some don't.

It's developed by Global Graphics and sold to Onyx and other Rip manufacturers who then build their own wrapper (interface)

Thus some PDF issues are due to Jaws & are shared by several Rips, other issues are caused by the wrapper and are unique to that RIP.

It so happens that CS3 PDFs seem to have taken a dislike to Jaws and thus the current spate of issues - most are resolved I understand but not are not released yet.

7.3 is due soon but I'm not sure it involves these PDF fixes.

[jesse]

We've been testing this issue, and have found overprint and transparency works when you turn color management off. Not an acceptable solution for most, but that seems to be where the conflict somehow lies. I can't give specifics (because I don't know much more), but it might be a worthwhile test just for kicks to see if it resolves anything.